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Lecture 5

PHIL 330 Lecture 5: PHIL 330 Lecture 5
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2 Pages
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Winter 2017

Department
Philosophy
Course Code
PHIL-330
Professor
E.L.
Lecture
5

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Thrasymachus: heis name means bold in battle
-ot a aidetal harater hoie wild east, lio. Is agry soo as he egis—why? He does’t
agree with Socrates views and behaviour. Thrasymachus believes he knows best; he is angry because
Polemarchus would no longer hire him to teach rhetoric and receive payment, when Polemarchus
pledges allegiance to philosophy. The loss of a wealthy customer to philosophy.
-Thrasymachus insists that Socrates gives a definition himself, rather than setting others up to fail: sets
parameters of justice being the right, the beneficial, the advantageous [336D]. Socrates insists he cannot
provide a definition on those terms, because he is not sure that justice is NOT the advantageous and the
beneficial.
-Socrates likely already knows what his definition of justice is, but he does not know it to be
true; but also he has been prevented from using words he would use. Socrates has informed
Polemarchus of his own ignorance in the Socratic style
-Thrasymachus will give his own definition but will include the words he just banned Socrates
from using.
Socrates claims he cannot give the definition of justice in compliance with these terms.
Thrasymachus characterization: he is hypocritical, petty. Intellectual dishonesty: undermining the rules
set by oneself.
Sophistry: winning the argument is most important, not getting to the truth
Thrasymachus defines justice as:. So justice is what is advantageous to the stronger.
- obedience to laws, rules, and customs [nomoi]. Citizens are obligated to obey these rules which are in
the best interest of the ruler, who is the stronger of the two parties
Obedience out of fear of punishment; and the reward of not being punished when one is obedient. Just
individuals (rule followers) benefit the rulers the mostthey only benefit themselves in the sense that
they avoid punishment
-psychology: conventional morality; a non natural form of morality in which one acts to avoid
certain things. Justice is conventional in the sense that the stronger party makes the rules
-nomos: the greek word for law, which can be translated as both law and custom
-Thrasyahus oedes that rulers a ake istakes: they ake rules or laws whih are i their ow
iterest ut atually uderie their est iterests/receiving some sort of harm
-according to this: rulers can do what is both advantageous and disadvantageous to oneself by
acting justly
Polearhus takes the side of “orates; Cleitopho takes Thrasyahus’ side. Why does
Cleitophon interject only this one time?rejects Socrates refutation on the grounds that he has
understood it wrong
340b: Cleitophon defines justice as what the ruler BELIEVES IS BEST FOR HIM (in this sense, the
definition is purely power baseda dangerous view that power and control define justice)
-Thrasymachus argues Cleitophon is also wrong: will make a statement about the ruler as a ruler
The ruler, in a philosophical manner: the ruler is a ruler in so far as he acts like a ruler (the
notion of genuine rule is a type of knowledge, a type of techne)
A ruler who makes a mistake is a failure in the concept of ruler based on his failure. [341a]
When the ruler is deficient in knowledge only then will he make a mistake; at this point, he
would not e a skilled worker of his craft
-Thrasymachus has conceded we all make mistakes; but real ruling would then be impossible
because no one can never make mistakes. Thus justice is impossible since perfect rule is not possible,
and justice is a ruler doing what they believe to be of benefit.
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find more resources at oneclass.com Thrasymachus: heis name means bold in battle -▯ot a▯ a▯▯ide▯tal ▯hara▯ter ▯hoi▯e ▯wild ▯east▯, ▯lio▯▯. Is a▯gry soo▯ as he ▯egi▯s—why? He does▯’t agree with Socrates views and behaviour. Thrasymachus believes he knows best; he is angry because Polemarchus would no longer hire him to teach rhetoric and receive payment, when Polemarchus pledges allegiance to philosophy. The loss of a wealthy customer to philosophy. -Thrasymachus insists that Socrates gives a definition himself, rather than setting others up to fail: sets parameters of justice being the right, the beneficial, the advantageous [336D]. Socrates insists he cannot provide a definition on those terms, because he is not sure that justice is NOT the advantageous and the beneficial. -Socrates likely already knows what his definition of justice is, but he does not know it to be true; but also he has been prevented from using words he would use. Socrates has informed Polemarchus of his own ignorance in the Socratic style -Thrasymachus will give his own definition but will include the words he just banned Socrates from using. Socrates claims he cannot give the definition of justice in compliance with these terms. Thrasymachus characterization: he is hypocritical, petty. Intellectual dishonesty: undermining the rules set by oneself. Sophistry: winning the argument is most important, not getting to the truth Thrasymachus defines justice as:. So justice is what is advantageous to the stronger. - obedience to laws, rules, and customs [nomoi]. Citizens are obligated to obey these rules which are in the best interest of the ruler, who is the stronger of the two parties Obedience out of fear of punishment; and the reward of not being punished when one is obedient. Just individuals (rule followers) benefit the rulers the most—they only benefit themselves in the sense that they avoid punishment -psychology: conventional morality; a non natural form of morality in which one acts to avoid certain things. Justice is conventional in the sense that the stronger party makes the rules -nomos: the greek word for law, which can be translated as both law and custom -Thrasy▯a▯hus ▯o▯▯edes that rulers ▯a▯ ▯ake ▯istakes: they ▯ake rules or laws whi▯h are i▯ their ▯ow▯ i▯terest▯ ▯ut a▯tually u▯der▯i▯e their ▯est i▯terests/receiving some sort of harm -according to this: rulers can do what is both advantageous and disadvantageous to oneself by acting justly Pole▯ar▯hus takes the side of “o▯rates; Cleitopho▯ takes Thrasy▯a▯hus’ side. Why does Cleitophon interject only this one time?—rejects Socrates refutation on the grounds that he has understood it wrong 340b: Cleitophon defines justice as what the ruler BELIEVES IS BEST FOR HIM (in this sense, the definition is purely power based—a dangerous view that power and control define justice) -Thrasymachus argues Cleitophon is also wrong: will make a statement about the ruler as a ruler The ruler, in a philosophical manner: the ruler is a ruler in so far as he acts like a ruler (the notion of genuine rule is a type of knowledge, a type of techne) A ruler who makes a mistake is a failure in the concept of ruler based on his failure. [341a] When the ruler is deficient in knowledge only then will he make a mistake; at this point, he would not e a skilled worker of his craft -Thrasymachus has conceded we all make mistakes; but real ruling would then be impossible because no one can never make mistakes. Thus justice is impossible sinc
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