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POL 200 Oct 4

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University of Toronto Mississauga
Political Science
Clifford Orwin

Pol 200 week 4 Lec Oct 4, 2012 -The republic is to show us what we expect of justice and whether the republic satisfies our expectations -not that the definition is satisfactory, but that we can use these arguments to further our understanding of justice Glaucon/ Adiemantis Continued -justice means no you can’t have that, it is theirs, not yours -the just person is who said no to himself -he who sacrifices what is good for himself for the goodness of others -we admire just people but question them -Glau-justice is so great a good for oneself that it is worth the sacrifice -yes justice is hard, but worthwhile, even heroic -he who dies just dies happy -Adi -justice is actually pleasant, you don’t have to be a hero -its enough to know how to differentiate the just man from others -each of them would like justice to be what they say, but Socrates believes either defini- tion will be difficult -he accepts the challenge to prove/ disprove their definitions -admits they still don’t know what justice is -so how can they define whether it is good/ bad? -(p.45)- view justice through the view of a city -easier? to see justice in a macrocosm than a micro (individual justice) -so the ‘perfect city’ (republic) begins to form, genesis of the city -counter, wouldn’t it be easier to understand one individuals justice than having to learn all there is to learn about an entire city’s worth of knowledge of justice? -Socrates argues that the idea of a ‘city’ forms because our bodies have many needs (by nature) that are more easily met in a city because different people have different nat- ural skills/ arts -we want full time practitioners/ artists -each in the city produces what others need in order to obtain what he needs Pol 200 week 4 Lec Oct 4, 2012 -so where’s the justice? -its difficult to find in this city -isn’t justice to sacrifice what is good for you in order to benefit others? -not to benefit one’s self? -Socrates argues that even though there are contractual agreements, no sacrifice is re- quired because no one suffers, everyone benefits -each contributes to the common good/ does not effect the good of others -life in this city is pleasant, free of evils -even a city of vegetarians where not even the animals suffer -Adiemantis is pleased by this city -easy going, pleasant, no sacrifice -Glaucon- disagrees because there is nothing beyond the merely necessary -he wants a city where there are relishes -he the city is dull -diet is repetitive, sex is defined by marriage only enough to produce a necessary number of children for population control -the first city depends on the suppression of bodily need -Socrates says fine, let’s move on -there’s no room in the first city for philosophical thought/ expansion -not an intellectual lifestyle -everything in the city is perfect -only problems is how to produce food etc. -next is the feverish city -a world of new pleasures/ evils -consumptive city, anarchy, anything goes a city of the unnecessary -city of the 1% -Glaucon has a longing for ever more -Socrates thinks this city is good for showing why justice is necessary -this city brings itself into conflict with its neighbors because it will forever need more -establishes a ‘warrior’ class Pol 200 week 4 Lec Oct 4, 2012 -good for people who are ‘naturally’ warlike -what is a warlike nature? -self control -spiritedness- basis for anger -an ingredient necessary in every human being who wants to be great -feeling of invincibility when one is challenged -fight as opposed to flight reflex -we need warriors to protect us -we fear them because they are potential internal enemies -every society w
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