Class Notes (806,507)
Canada (492,261)
Classics (1,680)
CLA232H1 (202)

Thucydides Debate at Sparta

7 Pages
Unlock Document

University of Toronto St. George
Victoria Wohl

th March 26 , 2012 • internal divisions wtihin greece and athens • social divisions within athens itself • divisions within greece between sparta and athens • still alterity, still relationship between slef and other • one of the thigns we've been thinking about is the internal play with external and internal alterity • us and them within and without a country • but us and them in the same city or country things get more complicated • masses vs elite, demos vs oligarch, how to define ourselves against others wtihin same community • run risk of ripping cultures apart • canadians with multiculturalism, need unity • french canadian nationalism, what happens to canadda when it wants autonomy • fine line with difference than division • pellopponesian war greeks against greeks • lysistrata shows them what unites them, which is erections and lust for naked girl • traditionally greeks united by more than physiology • panhellenism: beleif in greece as a whole united nation • united them by language, not barbar • different dialects but all understand one another • all worship zeus, go to delphi—religions • cultural values—andreaia, euthera, colocalathea • shared history with persian wars • idea fades in and out of prominence • when one attacking without, easy to unify external threat • greeks spartans athenians alike under threat, panhellenism very strong • despite various interests, need to badn together and fight as one natino • greek poleis diminish after noone to fight against • persians withdraw us and them because focused in greece • athenians vs spartans • anxiety going along with that • when they start arguing, spartans now the other but 50 others on our side • are they us or htem our side, confusion about how to think of alterity • questions lyestrata imposes, points to past cooperatino • remember artermisium on that day when we hoisted sail, us and they agaisnt persia, now we're fighting one another, remember when we helped one another • uses this rhetoric to remind sprtans and athenians of their similarities • not fighting foreigners but killing fellow greeks • seen efforts to route alterity in pheusus • efforts to route alterity in novels, herodotus, custom is king • internal divisions we're seeing this week, alterity affected by history • definition by self and other and relationship between them shifts with historical circumstances • one moment greek vs persian, then athen vs spartan, then back to greek and persian • today looking at how athenians imagined difference from spartans • pheusidides: polis have different ways of life but different national characters, sees peloppenesian wars as these inate natural differences, innately different create antagonism, war inevitable • alterity with athenian and spartan • lysestrata, panhellenic unity, knew difference with right and wrong, all fought together, western world all banded together, greeks think of persian war, in herodotus account of persian wars, already see differences in sparta and athens emerging • in book 1, establishing distinction wih greeks and persians, develops differences with athenians and spartans, croesus sends inquiry to grteece for whcih greek state to take as an ally • 100yrs before pelop wars break out • rise of persisthesis to power, athens democratic past • when heres about sparta he says they have good laws and involved in conquest of neighboring cities • already here differences emerging wtih athens and sparta, differences concealed and revealed with greater struggle against sparta • both fighting together on behalf of greece • both athenians and spartans contributed significantly to victory against persia • salamis, themopylae, etc • spartans praised byu demoratatus, left sparta travelling wtih xerxes as advisor, when xerxes sees tehm doing hteir hair demoratus says “spartans will not under any accept terms from you even if meaning slavery, suppose 1000 of them take field, any number will fight, together are best soldiers in teh world • equal praise to aTHENIAns, book 7 section 139 “if athenians through fear of approachign danger abandoned their country or stayed to submit, conquest would have been assured in view of this therefore greeks saved bya thenians, held bounnds, whatever sid ethey joined sure to prevail up to athenians who rose to defend greece, athenians who drove back persian kign” • give both moment of glory and equal praise, but even as he does so, hitns at difference that divide them • always dividing the isthmus and abandoning greece • herodotus doesnt condemn this policy • he represents it not as a matter of cowardice • but rather spartas self interest rised in pellopanese • wants to protect its own interest • primary division of us • athens secondary for all of northern greece for them • athens interests different, different self definition, represent actions as defense all of greece • hardly altruistic, first persian war darius arrives 26 miles aoutside athens, yes it pretends it fought for all of greece but mostly itself • all athens and sparta represents itself as savign all of greece but both fighting for own interests, which are defined by geography • northern greece means ahtens must protect • altready persian wars you already see tensions visible • these tensions only get worse one threat of persia diminished • bopth athens and sparta acclaimed to save greece • both had a taste of leadership, athens at salamis, spartans and thermopolye • both want more power • athens buling power in agaean, and ionian coast • stnad off between them • cold war balacne of pwoers, both weary but no over hostilities • building pwoer in seperate realms • sparta undisputed leader in pellopenesian, building land army , landed pwoer • years after persian war, sparta spent time building up this pwoer base • all cities in pellopenese where sparta leader • military alliance • but really land based empire • sparta always had a military rep • athens was coming into itself, really develops, rebuilds acropolis, fortifies long walls connecting to coast, always access to navy, navy starting to be built, thermisticles says trust your wall of wood, what they did gave them success at salamis • navy became basis for empire • after persian wars athens establishes self as head of offensive lead • states in greece banded together forming delian league, treasury on island of delos, agaean island, started otu as volunteery defensive league under command of athens but all contributing to joint defense • building ships needs wood, greece doesnt have m uch timber, most little states figured easier jsut to contribute money instead of ships • only 3 of biggest islands contributing any ships • huge pot of money in delos being contributed by all allies for their defense, irmarked for common good, but controlled by aathens, most powerful member of league • athens has all of military force, building own navy • contributed money percisely for this cause • athens buildign up own power • allies supporting htis • athenians talk about this development of delian league at debate fo sparta in pellopenesian war • athenians say we didnt seek out an empire, deserve leadership because of our action in persian wars • athenians may be right, started as alliance where they begged athenians to help defend htemselves, but as threat diminishes allies feel less need for protection and wonder why all this money being given for navy that doesnt need to protect anyone • allies resentful of athenians • controlled trewasury, protected allies but started interfering in their internal affairs • overthrowing oligarchies and establishing ddemocracies, bossing and meddling • by 460's 20 years after persian wars, allies revolt try to get out of league and athens crushes them wit hnavy • strips them of autonomy, have to answer to,
More Less

Related notes for CLA232H1

Log In


Don't have an account?

Join OneClass

Access over 10 million pages of study
documents for 1.3 million courses.

Sign up

Join to view


By registering, I agree to the Terms and Privacy Policies
Already have an account?
Just a few more details

So we can recommend you notes for your school.

Reset Password

Please enter below the email address you registered with and we will send you a link to reset your password.

Add your courses

Get notes from the top students in your class.