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University of Toronto St. George
Political Science
Clifford Orwin

 Professor Orwin: Thrasymachus is the character that is most identified for him Adeimantus speech taken together, his favorite part of the book  Focal Question: - Why did Glaucon and Adeimantus made the demands of the Socrates that they had? And, just how those demands shape the justice that we experience today? - What does justice tell us?  Considerably from the cradle to the grave, „justice‟ says NO, NO, NO; a just person, who has justice internalized in himself/herself pretty much says „NO‟to everything  Most just is the one who would sacrifice the most  In principal, everything else it cherishes would on the practice of justice; giving up what is good for us to accommodate the good for others  Justice = painful and questionable (why should I be always giving up things for the sake of other people? Why should I submit to so much hassle?) - Two possible answers (defenses) to come across the question of the Justice 1) The answer that Glaucon wants to hear from Socrates  It is that justice is so gravely good that indeed the greatest most resplendid of human goods  It is the great good for oneself that is worth the sacrifices to all the others of it (Justice is hard, heroic, but it is WORTHWHILE)  It is the one thing that brings human beings happiness because those who die just, die happy 2)The answer thatAdeimantus wants to hear  The sacrifices that you have to make for justice is not very hard or painful at all; it is relatively easy  You don‟t have to be a hero (divine nature) to practice justice  It is a reasonable way of life for an ordinary person - Glaucon and Adeimantus are both very contradictory characters that each of them wants to hear one of the two. But, would Socrates be able to make both of those cases persuasively? - Both have real doubts that anyone would be able to make the case on the defense of justice (if anybody can make that case, Socrates can make it) Grasp the general plot of the argument, the action of the argument  Understanding republic, does it mean and later on to lay down the meaning of the just city? - As the visual probability of the just city, and there are if only that we can bring into the being, then we all would have been very happy because the problem of the justice would have been solved - It is inevitable to see how every single Socratic answer to the problem of justice, every aspect of the seeming of problem of justice including every feature of the supposed „just city,‟ proves in the end to be implausible and unsatisfactory answers which precisely deepens our appreciation of the question - In short, what Plato follows with this notion is NOT the answer to the question of justice; moronic view of Plato  Argument is rather touched upon  Invitation to the critical reflection: deep in our souls, ask ourselves what we expect from justice, and whether the city would satisfy those expectations  Enables us to amp for the thought and encourage the question of justice - The City of Speech is the spurious answer that furthers the genuine understanding of the question;  Platonic style and form of dialogue – opposing contrasting points of view, its invitation to each of us to take part in conversation  As a reader, you can‟t expect something for nothing; no such thing as prelaunch in reading just as any other human activities  What you get out of the words will always be proportional to what you put into it  Reading: activity, not a passive means of perception; the reason why the book still remains as the great part of the media - Socrates faces the massive obstacle as the two youths, Glaucon and Adeimantus, does not understand what justice is; how would you defend it if you do not know what it is? - Glaucon and Adeimantus at loss; Socrates proposed the construction of the City of Speech as a way out of their dilemma (368C – 369A)  Why is the city constructed in speech: logical, aoristic device, moves to the end of the argument  Purpose is to understand the justice of the individual, so to determine whether justice or injustice would be better choice for life  Resting on very debatable and hidden premise for implications which will come clear in the later readings; in fact setting up to play this way, Socrates is the one with the loaded dice Example: Toronto is much bigger than Ms. Waterman. Wouldn‟t it be much easier to answer what the implication of justice is in Toronto than the implication of what justice is in Ms. Waterman? - This would not be particularly easier. It would actually be more difficult. Because individuals are complicated and composited of more pieces. Somehow, society seems to be more complicated than this all.  Genesis of the City of Speech - First stage of the city, Socrates converses withAdeimantus - Based on the natural neediness of the human body. By nature, our bodies need many things - But, also by nature, each of us is suited to be producing only one. Different people are naturally suited to different pursuits - Principle of efficient production (obvious goods) : each person produce just one object, need of full-time professional to each art seen to our needs, not each of us rushing around to do everything for himself/herself  Not just our bodies need those things; we need help from other people to obtain those things - Socrates argues, society spins by nature because of the division of labor or mutual interdependence is the principle implicit in our natures  City: the community of the artisans, each pursues his or her trade out of their necessities and exchange the products in needs of other products produced by other artisans; how persistent this arts or themes work over here?  Each work in producing what others need, and thereby pays what he/she needs  City; common hive of useful humdrum of activities - Socrates says, there is your city where is your justice?  Adeimantus baffled at this point. He has a problem finding justice even in this city; he suggests, maybe in some means that they have each other  Socrates presses on; question left unanswered - What is the problem of the city? What is the problem of the justice of the city?  By justice, we mean the dedication to the common good, or sacrifice for the sake of the common good over the good of the others  IN THIS CITY, THERE IS NONE OF THAT  In the city, the situation of the perfect economic equilibrium that Socrates describes each contributes to the common good by simply contributing themselves to his/her own  Perfect covenant between the interest of the each and those of individuals and every other, no possible tension between my goods and your goods (by your good as by individual, or as good of the collective citizens)  Without ever thinking about anyone‟s good but my own, I must choose so that I can get bread and other things, but when I think about working towards good of my own, I actually work towards the good of all; invisible hand resolves the problem of justice  No sacrifices required; no compulsion - The laws in punitive justice is absolute sin as our rulers; rulers also would be superfluous, because when law as a constrainer superfluous, rulers also superfluous; only within the export feverish cities - Life in the first city: pleasant, easy, completely tranquil, and peaceful, free from all troubles and evils; Socrates does not even mention „death‟ within the domain of this city or even beasts. This is the city of vegetarians - Very beautiful, but maybe a little bit dull; so farAdeimantus very happy with it  Adeimantus: easy going so far as pleasure is concerned, without great desires, comfortable with the absence of self-preservation; absence of all those indicators arouses Adeimantus „indignation‟ - Glaucon interrupting and attacking the first city; what is so defective in the city?  Feasting without relishes; no indulgences - When Socrates is discussing the sexual life of the city, Glaucon interrupts (372B- C)  “not produce children beyond our means, keeping an eye for poverty and war”  Intercourse between husbands and wives are guided solely for population control inAdeimantus‟city - the last straw for Glaucon  Socrates gloating Glaucon saying “I forgot that they‟ll have relishes, too – it‟s plain they‟ll have salt, olives, cheese; and they will boil onions and greens, just as one gets them in the country. And to be sure, we‟ll set desserts before them – figs, pulse and beans; and they‟ll roast myrtile berries and acorns before the fire and drink in measure along with it. And so they will live out their lives in peace with health, as is likely, and at last, dying as old men, they will hand down other similar lives to their offspring.”  Glaucon‟s point of view, the city life is only that life worth of beasts; he would be willing to sacrifice something for the pleasure of others, but do not see any means of it in the barriers of this city  The first city depends on the suppression of the Eros; theme that Eros implying is inseparably intertwined with that of justice  Socrates offering no defense in the pass of the city? Can it be what he wants is not to be found there either? What might that be? - The city itself is lacking intellectual debate and learning; only vocational training and singing praises to the gods present – neither of these activities would come to satisfy Socrates (spunges off the wealth of the society; others are profitable by his presence) - Both the desired activities of Socrates and Glaucon require economic surplus and pleasure which is nonexistent in the first city - Feverish city: characterized by the emancipation of the superfluous passion; passion is unconnected with the means of the body, world of new pleasures and new evils  The less necessary the better, the realm of the 1%  The city outgrows its territory; it needs more to support its feverish habits – new class emerges, a class of warriors  War is a art that is far more demanding than other common arts, only accessible to those with natural aptitude  Founders of the City of Speech know how to discern a warlike nature  What is it that distinguishes the warlike nature from the unwarlike one?  Range of phenomenon: it is somehow the basis within the soul of warlike courage than it is to say a determined resistance to one‟s attitudes  Relic of one‟s grasp of the feeling of invincibility  Characteristics of beasts rather than human beings  The steadfastness creates no obstacles, never conceives, and never says „die‟- it gives all for VICTORY  Many dependent upon mercy of those who are fighters; fundamental problem of the work effect or the problem of justice itself in the society  On one hand what we need is tough people who could protect us from threats both external and internal – not only in need of tough and brave soldiers, but also tough and brave peace men/soldiers (charismatic)  However, on the other hand we should still fear them as potential internal enemies; same characteristics dangerous to our enemies, often potentially dangerous towards us  For specialization of labor to continue there have to be people committed to justice and patriotism for the common good over rise of their concern of their own business/safety  Basis of such commitment is spiritedness (obviously from the beginning Plato was fully aware of the dangers of the spiriteness); Socrates presents spiritedness as intermediate necessary to the soul of every human being striving for excellence - The problem of virtue first arising in the city: the guardians must be harsh towards their enemies, but what assures that they will be gentle, or just to their own citizens? How can nature combine mildness and spiritedness?  Composite of different solutions; best city depends on how it resolved this problem by the means of nature  Socrates comes up with a person with a „philosophic‟ dog (the first mention of the philosophy in the work) – 376A  The dog and the philosophic person both love knowledge and hate ignorance; the dog barks at strangers even though they did no harm. Is this really true?  There is a difference between loving knowledge and what is famil
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