We haven"t had a problem with that since september. There must be a perceiver for a sound and taste. In order for them to be, they must be perceived. If you don"t perceive colour, there is no colour. There may be something causing us to see the colour, but it only exists in things as perceived by us. Hylas first suggests that there is this distinguish between the primary and secondary. Philinous takes him through those steps, he tried to show him that those qualities are also mind dependent. We saw philonous" mistakes and so did hylas. Extension, size and shape in general are mind dependent. Page 32 distinguish between absolute and sensible extension there is extension in general that is independent according to hylas the next suggestion that philonous makes or challenge that he gives to hylas. He challanges him to come up with an abstract general idea of a motion independent of an object moving.