so my leading the audience to believe that the conventions are not wisdom,
knowledge…one stage of the argument in book 2 Socrates finds out that his arguments
of conventional justice was not persuasive…two were Plato’s brothers who challenged
him to do nothing less, 1 that justice is good, not for any advantage but for it is good in of
itself, 2 to prove that it is right to be just in reality..
•Socrates answered to the challenge, he sets out to prove that it is good for people to be
just whether it brings advantages or disadvantages in reality.
•Socrates develops a model of pol/soc justice that involves 3 classes of people; 1 rulers
of the just society, the wise who seek knowledge and apprehend what is good and true
and right, 2. Helpers of the rulers who are the auxiliary; protect social structure of society
itself.. 3 are the producing/money making classes which function is to produce the
material goods of society..the just individual is also composed of three parts; rational- to
rule, spiritual- courageous, spiritual- and having mind heart and desires
•Main concern is not the contract of society but to understand the just in the individual…
live justice individually…purpose is to warn idealistic young people of trying to inform a
just society…discourage to build just society on earth.
-four participants; Socrates, Keflis, Polincous, vzificis
-conventional views of justice; these doctrines of justice are drawn from existing views of
justice dominate in Athens; humanly constructed views; they are not given by Gods,
nature, reflective reason..which means they are cultural/dominate views.
-what are conventional views of justice dominate in NA society
-don’t cheat or lie; conception of what is right to do, morality.
-my country or my family or my race or my ethnic view, party right or wrong…
whatever they do I find right, whatever they don’t do I find wrong; nationalism;
morality which people associate with the
-whatever is good for me is right; the morality of course is you should look after
-when it feels good, do it if you can get away with it.
-the discussion of the republic have relevance to us today.
-socrates becomes critical to these views of justice; he is being critical of the moral
outlook in his own society, in effect he is in subversion of society of morality; his critics
are of considerable relevance because they are subversive of our own realities; this
doesn’t mean we should share the same views but understand them well enough to
create our own alternate conception of justice.
First Debate: justice
-discussion initiated by Socrates and kefilis;
-kefilis is a very pirous man, he finished his sacrifice of his god and to other gods, he is a
socially gracious person, he is old, retired, and successful business man, we know he likes or
claims to like listening to speeches…the entire dialogue of Plato takes place in his house