Isocrates : thinks gorgias" speech on helen is useless and not contribute to society. Use his speech to call greeks into action. Alcidamas : need to practice extemp speech in order to become public speaker, rhetoric. Socrates: arose to counteract tyrants and defend in courts, rhetoric to mirros life duty, not gain wealth (citizen socrates) Aristotle : what is true of rhetoric is too of ethics. Alcidamas and truth, better accommodate new ideas, flexible, useful) Yes (write to criticize writing) and no (criticize isocrates, speech mirrors life. Shows how odysseus is being sophist like. Socrates : no, not teach certain topics, no money, specific goal in mind, willing to risk. Dig against odysseys by expressing excitement at meeting other wronged men bad reputation to do what"s right. Aristotle: yes - say that rhetoricians argue others" beliefs and persuade truth. Aristophanes : clouds as foil to zeus and gods.