Own Reading Republic by Plato.docx

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University of British Columbia
Political Science
POLI 240
Christopher Erickson

Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis Own Reading: Republic by Plato Introduction - Poets don’t determine the exact definition; they only provide the features/characteristics - The Lies of the Rulers:  It should be done with a good intention. There are 2 types of lies.  “Falsely sustained ideology - Private Life and Private Property  Kallipolis men and women have equal access to the same careers and receive same education  Producers and guardians have unequal rights Book 1 - Ask to Cephalus what he really missed. Conclude that people’s ways of life affect what they miss when they become old. Some are just glad to not be overpowered by their sexual desires but some aren’t - Socrates believe that those who make their own money love it twice as much than those who simply inherit the wealth - Discussing the meaning of justice: to speak the truth and repay the debt - Polemarchus agrees with Simonides’ definition of justice – to give to each what is owed to him (this is not the same as in the previous point) - Socrates’ came to a conclusion about what is truly meant by Simonides: justice is about giving what is appropriate to him  this implies giving him what he is owed - Argument 1: justice is useful for useless thing - Argument 2: justice is some sort of craft of stealing (as suggested by Homer, Polemarchus and Simonides) – one that benefits friends and harms one’s enemies - Definition of friends according to Polemarchus and consequently the effect it has to justice: to treat a friend well, provided he is good, and to harm an enemy, provided he is bad - Page 11: try to understand the idea of virtue - Argument 3: it’s not a just man’s right to harm someone else - Ultimate conclusion by Socrates supported by Polemarchus: It is never just to harm anyone. They will go against anyone who says that: a just man should harm his enemies and benefit his friends  This conclusion was not accepted by Thyrasymachus.  Thyrasymachus is also furious because Socrates is the type of person who won’t give an exact answer but he will provide answers that point towards answers (you can say Socrates encourages one to think about the answers rather than accept them as it is). Thyrasymachus on the other hand is the type who wants the answer and not really interested about discussing it. - Thyrasymachus counters Socrates’ definition about justice: justice is nothing other than what is advantageous for the stronger. He also believes that injustice is more profitable than justice  However, Socrates was able to counter him by providing several premises (pg 20)  (pg 24): from the premises provided, he shows that a ruler doesn’t benefit himself, but he brings benefits to his subjects. - Socrates’ attempt to refute Thrasymachus Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis  Will the groups with unjust purposes succeed if theyre unjust to each other? T agreed to the parallel. S goes on to say injustice causes factions etc. (pg 31) Differences that are created disables the society to achieve a common purpose  Socrates’ conclusion: (pg 31) Book 2 - Correct decision can only be made if we contrast the extremes of justice and injustice - The idea:  Subtract nothing from the injustice of the unjust person  Subtract nothing from the justice of the just person  For the extreme of injustice is to be believed to be just without actually being so (just appear to be just). And our completely unjust person must be given complete injustice – nothing must be subtracted from it.  this person in actuality is an unjust person, but the public sees him as a just person. This kind of person will also do whatever it takes to appear to be just  The notion of a just person: does not want to be believed to be good, but to be so. For this to happen, his reputation must be taken away as the reputation provides him with honor and rewards. Glaucon further adds that, in order for this to occur, the just person should be treated on the extreme opposite of the unjust person and he must be thought to lead an unjust life until the day he dies in order to prove that he is a just person.  The outcome will be measured in terms of who is happier than the other.  A person usually appears to be just because the person is a reputation lover [Adeimantus, brother of Glaucon chips in] - Argument used by private individuals and poets  Justice and temperance are fine things but difficult and onerous  Intemperance and injustice are sweet and easy to acquire but shameful by repute (pg 42) - Homer to bear witness that the gods can be influenced by humans, a belief that god makes mistake by mistakenly thing that their decision is right - Musaeus? Orpheus? Selene and the Muses? Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis - Pindar’s question: Is it by justice or by crooked tricks that I will scale the higher wall - There’s no use to live a just life if people don’t think you’re just - The wise Archilochus’s greedy and cunning fox - Since it’s hard to hide the evil  forms secret societies and political clubs  this is where the members will be taught the ‘zig-zag’ of laws - The Athenian belief about god: gods can be persuaded and influenced by sacrifices, gentle prayers, and offerings.  if the Athenian belief about god is different, then the way Adeimantus structured his argument will change too, right? - Battle of Megara? - 1) The greatest falsehood about the greatest things has no good features (pg 58)  Socrates’ notion of god: God must be good. So, anything bad can’t be associated with God. Rather, what can be said is “bad people are wretched because they are in need of punishment, and that in paying the penalty they are benefited by the god.” - 2) the gods are not sorcerers who change themselves, nor do they mislead us by telling lies in word or deed pg 64  The healthiest and strongest is least altered – so, God is least likely to appear in other form besides his  True lie vs real lie – the idea about lying what is really true and what is not true  Lie used to prevent others from doing bad  Ultimate conclusion: God doesn’t lie  Consequence for those that accuse god of bad things: The one who has the same belief as Socrates will be angry with the person and refuse the bigot with funds to produce a play - DAIMONIC - Socrates conclusion is agreed by Adeimantus Book 3 - Discussion about the appropriate content in stories that can be told to the youth - Different distinguishing about lies and its importance by discussing about gods, heroes, daimons and things in Hades - Producing poems/words/literary forms that don’t inculcate negative beliefs - Achilles’ name has been smeared with bad reputation. Socrates ultimately rejected the Achilles :was so full of inner disorder as to have two opposite diseases within: illiberality accompanied by the love of money on the one hand, and arrogance towards gods and humans on the other.”  it is impossible for god to produce evils  The story that portrays gods with bad images need to be stopped as by continuing to do so, it will inculcate a wrong belief in the youth  The youth, if convicted with any kind of wrongdoings will point to god by saying something like, “The gods did it too, why can’t they?”  Implicitly, this is about the importance of role models. - #what’s the relationship between Agamemnon and Achaeans? Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis - Problems with the way books like Illiad are phrased. The poet seems to impose their own thoughts in the narration without telling readers. Thus, the meaning of some books has been distorted by their narration.  Narration without imitation – the narrator maintain the original speaker’s style  1) Poetry and story-telling employs only imitation  2) Dithyrambs – employs only narration by the poet himself  3) Uses both: epic poetry - Assumption: no man can be a master of many things. So, a guardian can’t be an imitator as that’s not what they’re best at. If they do imitate, it must be right from childhood where it is appropriate - Proposed format of imitation: includes a censoring version of that good man. Only includes the good part (pg 78)  I could’ve mistaken this - #Homeric epic ? - Page 78 – have to further understand about 2 styles of narration  1) involves little variation – same rhythm and a single harmony  2) every harmony and every rhythm to be spoken properly  So, a soldier will be a soldier and not a money maker, and it applies to other professions - After musical education comes physical training  Best physical training = simple musical training  What is meant by this is to have a simple feast and nothing fancy, no girlfriend (prostitute) - Pg 100 – important about a society’s social hierarchy:  Gold (capable of ruling)  Silver (auxiliaries)  Iron and bronze (farmers and other craftsmen)  Assign tasks appropriate to their nature - Who’s Asclepius (son of Apollo) ? Herodicus who torments himself and was a physician, but, due to his wisdom, he managed to live longer - The profession doctor is not profitable. Because the lives of naturally sick and intemperate are worthless for everyone. - Music develops one’s personality to be soft - Auxiliaries? - Simple life of a soldier - ‘Appropriate laws for soldiers are concluded Book 4 - How do you counter the notion that the guardians are simply, “wage-earning auxiliaries established in the city as a garrison”  If we were to provide every job with lots of perks, then “a farmer won’t be a farmer, not a potter a potter”  Let the nature provides each group with its share of happiness - Poverty and wealth make the products and the practitioners of the craft worse  Both extremes are not beneficial to craftsmen  Socrates continued: as long as your own city is temperately governed, it will be the greatest one  Determining an appropriate size of a city for a maximum optimization - Criticisms are not accepted positively but willingly accept appraisals because some authorities prefer to hear sugar-coated news. Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis - Don’t blame the politicians if what they attempt to do is akin to cutting of a Hydra’s head - Courage = preservation by any means  pains, pleasures, appetites, fears  The means to maintain something which in this case refers to belief - However, discussion about courage was deliberately stopped and continued with about justice. Socrates continues with temperance and justice - Self-mastery is a ridiculous term  Either when better things master the bad  this will be praised  Or when worse things master the better  this will be a disgraced - Since Athens is considered a city whereby it is the master of its pleasure and desire, it is synonymously temperance. Also, because the rulers and the followers believe in this, it has created a harmony. - Current idea of just: “To not be deprived of something that is theirs and to not be taking things that are not theirs” - Meddling with and exchanges with different classes will cause disasters. One should mind his own social function.  Ultimately, Socrates define this as injustice - Proceed with a new question: Does the soul have these 3 kinds of things in it or not?  Basically, the 3 things refer to ????? – is it, justice, temperance and wisdom and courage? - The same thing can- at the same time, in the same respect, and in relation to the same thing – undergo, be, or do opposite things.  To avoid taking time to prove this, hypothesize: what they have said is correct and if in any case is were proven to be wrong, then the whatever consequences drawn from the discussion will be wrong - Distinguishing knowledge that is related to a certain area and knowledge that is developed because of some finding - There are 2 elements of soul: 1) rationally calculating element 2) the one that feels passion, hungers, thirsts and stirred by the irrational and appetitive element - Reference to story: A play about Leontius, a person who likes boys who look as pale as a corpse. Despite being disgusted, he looks nevertheless. His appetite masters his rationality  Suggest: anger sometimes makes war against the appetites as one thing against another  The anger originates from one’s frustration because there is an innate desire that overrules his rational calculation - 3 classes in the city: 1) the moneymaking 2) the auxiliary 3) the deliberative - A man is just in exactly the same way as is a city  A city is just because each 3 classes do their own work  A mixture of musical and physical trainings - Next discussion: Injustice  Pg. 134: Virtue is a sort of health, a fine and good state of the soul; whereas vice seems to be a shameful disease and weakness Book 5 - Do you think women should go hunting and do what the male do?  should they receive an equal economic opportunities  BUT, giving same education, same crafts, same employment  these practices are on contrary to the Athenian culture Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis  The most ridiculous idea will be to see naked women practise physical trainings alongside with men  The idea of seeing men naked was not that long ago seen as something acceptable by the Greeks  A fool who finds anything ridiculous except what is bad or tries to raise a lugh at the sight of anything except what is stupid or bad / someone who takes seriously any standard of what is beautiful other than what is good - Continuing with the question about female and male roles, Socrates is it woman different than man by nature? And didn’t we agree that one person should be specialized in a function? - Disputation, eristic. Eristic versus dialectical discussion - Discussion: different natures should not be assigned the same pursuits. But, didn’t consider:  What kind of natural difference or sameness we had in mind?  In what regard the distinction was pertinent, when we assigned different pursuits to different natures and the same ones to the same? - It is important, for the sake of the discussion, to be explicit with the discussion parameter  Women to some extent is capable of doing something but they are restrained by physical factors - Guardians are the best citizen - Should women receive a different version of physical training than men? - Plucking the unripe fruit of laughter’s wisdom - Pg. 147:  All women should be shared among all the men  No individual woman and man should live together  The children should be shared (with no parent knowing its own offspring and no child its parents) - 2 questions that need to be answered:  The sharing of women and children is the greatest good  Is it or is it not viable? - The best breeds the best - Those who manage to achieve something will be rewarded with sex and they will father as many kids as possible. The children will be taken by Athenian officials - The kids who are born by inferior parents will be included in infanticide  this is the Greece birth control method - Bearing age  Women: 20 – 40  Men: peak as a runner – 55  Other than this age, the fathered children will not be accountable with any responsibility and they’re considered illegitimate children - After the breeding age:  Free to have sex with whomever they wish except: 1) a man may not have sex with his daughter/mother/daughter’s daughter/mother’s female ancestors/a woman with her son/his descendants/her father/his ancestors - Pg 153 If born at the same time as theirs mothers and fathers were breeding, they will call their brothers and sisters  Bros and sis can’t marry each other except if the lottery hits and Pythia approves - Applying mine and not mine  what is this about? Have to understand the context Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis - In democracies, leaders are called rulers - In Athens: preservers / auxiliaries - In Athens, the people are called: paymasters / providers  Other cities, people are called: slaves - Rulers in other cities call each other: co-rulers - Rulers in Athens call each other: co-guardians - Pg 155: what is it referring to? - Ultimate conclusion: the sharing of women and children by auxiliaries (rulers) is the greatest good  if you were to be real guardians, shouldn’t have private houses, land or any other possession, but should receive their upkeep from other citizens as a wage for their guardianship and should eat communally  guardians have no possession except for their own bodies - older person is authorized to rule and punish the younger ones. So, it is unlikely for a younger person to employ violence on an older person  impossible for a younger person to be disrespectful because of fear and shame  shame will prevent one from committing violence because of the fear that other people would come to help the victim - rewards for the victors:  receive privileges from their own city during their lifetime and a worthy burial after their death - Question: is auxiliary the same as guardians? Victors not the same as guardians? - Male and female guardians hunt together, commit into the same things together.  Their children will follow them to war and observe how their parents fight in a war  The children are expected to help and assist in every aspect of war  Ultimately, Socrates equates humans with animals when he said, “every animal will fight better in the presence of its young”  Glaucon: it is risking the lives of the children. Socrates: but the risk improves the chance of winning  Due to the concern, Socrates suggests to devise a plan that will keep the children safe under the care of experienced leaders. The children should also be put on the fastest and manageable horses so that they get the best view of the wars  Question: those who are the shoemakers will always become shoemakers? Those who are guardians will always become guardians? - Socrates’ point of view really assumes that men are animals (pg. 160), where jealousy is used as the motivation for a person to become a better fighter - Golden race? Pg 161 daimon is a form of demigod (godlike people)  Socrates suggest to worship them (the god like people) - Socrates asked: 1) Don’t you think it is illiberal and money-loving to strip a corpse? 2) Isn’t it small-minded and womanish to regard a dead body as your enemy, when the enemy himself has flitted away leaving behind only the instrument with which he fought? Do you think that people who do this are any different from dogs who get angry with the stones thrown at them but leave the person throwing them alone?  Glaucon said, they shouldn’t strip of the corpses  Socrates believe that the soldiers shouldn’t burn houses and ravage land - Faction applies to hostility toward one’s own - War to hostility toward strangers Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis - Analogy: pg 162 – the Greek race, in relation to itself, is its own and kin, but, in relation to barbarians, is strange and foreign  Greek fight with Greek: the Greek is simply divided into factions  Greek fight with barbarians: the Greek engages into a war  However, I find this a bit ironic as Socrates just equated men with animals. So, why distinct themselves from barbarians? - The ultimate conclusion: The Greeks quarrel with the aim to reconcile and this means they won’t burn other people’s houses. Also, they will discipline their foes in a friendly spirit since they are discipliners, not enemies.  They will only pursue the conflict only to the point at which those responsible are compelled to pay the penalty by the innocent ones who are suffering painfully - But, why does Glaucon says that the Greeks should treat barbarians the same way the Greeks treat each other? - Glaucon asks Socrates whether it is possible for the constitution to come into existence? - Since it’s hard to produce an ideal model of a just city, then, should be satisfied with getting the closest approximation possible - The discussion of philosopher king (pg 166)  For a city to be just and free from evilness, philosophy and politics should blend thoroughly together.  From his terms, it seems that Socrates believes that philosophers or kings should rule their cities. Some people can be philosophers and some other can be something else - Flower is in full bloom - homo relationship is allowed in Athens. So, Socrates was referring to this  Socrates will refer to this example to illustrate the idea - Wine lover and honor lover  Wine lover doesn’t drink one bottle of wine just because they love it and that’s not the way you enjoy wine. Regardless of the amount, they’ll still love wine anyway  Honor lover: just to be honored in any way is sufficient for them. An honor lover doesn’t mind who they are honored by or how much they are honored by because that’s not the way one receives honor (more or less) - Are we to say that he has an appetite for everything of that kind, or for one part of it but not another?  For philosopher, he loves all of the knowledge and not some of it. He can’t be picky. If he is, that he’s not a philosopher - **What about someone who believes in beautiful things but not in the beautiful itself  Socrates goes on to rant about a likeness is not a likeness, isn’t this person dreaming?  Glaucon: dreaming  the thought is belief, believe in beautiful things but not the beauty itself  This is called philodoxers (lovers of belief) - pg170. Socrates asked Glaucon to consider: what if the person is believing but not knowing? What’s the way to sooth this person?  Suggest to ask this: Does someone who knows know nothing or something?  Then: Something that is or something that is not  What is completely is completely an object of knowledge and what is in no way at all is an object complete ignorance Later on, compare notes with ppoint slides and make your own analysis - **Someone who does believe in the beautiful itself, is able to observe both it and the things that participate in it…  is he dreaming or awake?  Glaucon: awake  The thought is knowledge, believe that beauty is a thing  This is called philosophers (lovers of wisdom) - Ultimate conclusion: knowledge deals with what is, ignorance deals with what is not - Belief ≠ Knowledge  Belief is just a power that enables us to believe while knowledge is the most effective power of all  Belief deals with Believes and knowledge deals with What Is, Ignorance deals with What Is Not  If we were to scale it: Ignorance  Belief  Knowledge  Affirmation: pg 174 Book 6 (continuation of the Philosopher-kings) - Socrates suggests that philosophers should be the leaders of a city by implying that leaders of a city should be those who seem capable of guarding a city’s laws and practices - Q: Should a guardian who is going to keep watch over something be blind or keen- sighted? - Pg 176: the blind = those who are deprived of the knowledge of each thing that is - Again, Socrates asks question that implies philosophers should be the leaders of the city - Nature of philosophers:  love knowledge  truthful  truth and wisdom are strongly related; so, philosopher as a lover of wisdom can’t be a lover of falsehood  don’t mind about human and death. So, a philosopher is brave  not money-loving  fast learner  not forgetful  truth = proportionate - laboring in vain (?), Momus? - Adeimantus wants to object to the conclusion (p. 180):  Those who are unskilled with arguments will be easily defeated or misled  Philosophers are useless people - Socrates said he must answer in images the claim made by Adeimantus. The claim: How can useless individuals like philosophers can be trusted to rule a city? Socrates used an image of a ship (the one explained in class)  Shipowner is taller and stronger than everyone else. But he is deaf, short-sighted, don’t have sufficient knowledge of seafaring  The sailors are quarreling with one another about captaincy. Each of
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