CHILDREN. MENTALLY ILL. INTELLECTUALLY HANDICAPPED Oct. 23
Individuals who are incarcerated but are not blame worthy (i.e. mental institutions)
is this still punishment?
non-punitive kinds of punishment
these people are treated in a clinical or educational way
not with the intention of punishing them
young people, children youth, mentally ill and disabled people
in all these except kids, they have committed criminal code offence and sentenced to
community sanctions, etc.
youth under youth justice system
we are talking about people in some kind of custodial rights
talking about infringing on their rights (and normal business)
detained against their will, not meant to punish
might suffered experiences in institutions that are additionally punitive
sometimes they are intentionally punished
3 pops this most the case
there are other cases, i.e. elderly people with degenerative diseases, etc.
Does it make sense to say they are not being punished?
in these cases, they are considered to need to be incap. because they threaten social order
looks like the system of punishment
even though not intentional, is it still punishment?
The reading about survey
trying to gage info on children in hidden custody
not in youth justice or mental
they are in custodial care that not in registry
being detained for their own good
subjected to coercion
in the case of children, its different:
when away from care of parents, those looking over them have parental rights
very different situation
residential schools, treatment facilities
may be referred by court, school, psychologist, etc.
unlike UK, in the NA there are private institutions where parents send their troubled children
parents purchasing services without reference from state there are status offences: you can send a youth into custody if they do something, but not an
adult (in trouble, but not breaking law)
i.e. absconding from another institution
engaging in school violence
inappropriate sex or addiction behaviours, etc.
truancy from school
Grandview in Ontario: state run, for children
girls would be there for all of above examples
many treatment programs
decided psychotherapy did not work
want to keep them there to deliver treatment programs (need to lock them up to
deliver the program)
the idea is not different from the civil commitment of the mentally ill
civil commitment of the mentally ill: putting someone in mental hospital against their will
because children are not able to make adult children, depriving them of their rights is not the
same as it would be with adults
we are not as offended b/c we expect the parents/state to make the right decisions
this is an ordinary part of the justice system, even though youth custody has shifted away to
more criminal code violations
1984 on ward, moves away from therapeutic ideal, but many still ending up in institutions
Also the question of what happens inside?
maintain discipline, therapeutically punished inside
drawing the lines between this and punishment is hard
UK: Pin down scandal:
social worker tried to establish discipline avoiding abuse
involved restraining, putting in seclusion, time outs, etc.
by the time it became scandal, it was seen as abuse of the children
within institutions, there is more directly seen as forms of punishment
is this punishment or not?
worth asking if the sociologies of punishment; how they would frame these practices?
Liberal pluralist: who argues against and for them, govn’t funding, etc.
they will not have much to say because it’s a hidden story
the picture they tend to draw: things are much more public now, however, polices
such as these are drawn behind peoples backs
These particular institutions is not the subject of much public debate
Durkheim: the answer to if its punishment in unequivocal they say the essence of punishment is public ritual
there is not public ritual here
its’ kept quite
people are not proud of taking kids away from parents
they don’t have much to say of it
Soc. of Ineq.: if we ignore private institutions in US, the people who govn’t agencies send are
from marginalized populations, typically subjects of inequality system
how does this fit in with policing of marginalized communities
what’s going on there is not an ideology, because it is hidden (an ideology must be
broadcasted, and the public must know about it)
Foucault: if their picture is one where justice is turned into therapy and then ultimately
something else happens, which is the government steps back from the total control, and
begins to bring in citizens and other agencies, then you could imagine how it would look: fits
in with patterns of discourse
wanting to talk about ways children are rep. of modern discipline
Intellectually disabled people: people can have mild handicaps that are still locked up in jail
here, were talking about people more with those who can’t function in society
because behaviour troublesome
the eugenics idea of the defective strain within human populations
people had the idea that the rump end of humans were breeding faster than the top end
the alcoholic ends were breading too fast
and the doctors and lawyers were not have enough kids
had a racial over tone
targeted within racial communities
some white groups had the inferior breeding families
many were taken into long term institutions, called columns
the legislation started around same time as youth act
the things they did things wrong were not illegal, but more social wrongs
Is locking them up punishment?
some had large handicaps
the staff clearly cared about them
but they didn’t; have the same legal and civil rights as others; lost their legal rights
some else arises in regards to regards to care of intellectually diabled, which is more to do
with modern systems of treatment now a strong emphasis on living in the community
still individuals who can’t manage to live in community and have to be
question arises about how they are treated (what happens when they are treated)
question of punishmen