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feb. 5, 2013- 367.docx

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University of Toronto St. George
Jacqueline Brunning

feb. 5, 2013 1. 2nd Punic war presentation: Marcellus (Plutarch’s) 2. roman militarism and expansion during the 2nd C presentation: Cato the elder 3. Roman diplomacy presentation: the diplomacy of Rome Hannibal's ambition…. sources we have… and illuminate the course of the war from the very beginning. ideological content when legal right…. continual torture… what could Rome do? defend itself. excuse for a war… swearing an oath… defend itself. of course other aspects to consider as well… going to war…fighting this war.. growing influence of carthage in spain… large terrirotry west of ROme. silv.ermines..copper…. well known and exploited by carthaginians. rome was active. so, roman disagreement with carthage. LR 59 Erbro River* 226* north- roman do w/e you want… disturb… Saguntum*hegemony (hannibal seige city of saguntum in 219BC) challenge or irretate carthaginians…. if you want peace.. cant do it… hannibal seige and took saguntum. march to soutehrn france beginning and rome… made attempt to gain foothold even in carthaginain territory. hannibal (grudge against them)…. strenghth of these two states are compared??? how are they compared? - carthage was superior at sea but rome superior with infantry… carthaginians were mercentaries but romans were always citizens. who is giving this information? LR 60 Polybius its in genearl term that allies are the stregnth of the powers* and reliability. military…. for rome they are prepared? in one case, we find both sides and at least, we find numbers from carthaginians… no access and nothing had survived…. looking for material…. stregnth and report. LR 62 numbers* looking at 60 because polybius' generalization… where strength lies… poly is an intelligent observer. from 60 talks about carth superior at sea. continue to trade and have a navy and so fourth… allowed their own… lot of money… to keep ship at sea and preserve when not out sailing. need ship sheds and preserve it without damaging it. then he talks about qualities of the solider and foreing, mercenaries.. but rome= native of the soil and citizens. there are pros and cons in the mercenary world. but he also (based on the ideal state) and citizens will fight to hardests* and fsacrifice themselves. in many cases, its true… but if youre up with professionals…with confident generals, citizens will have problems with mercenary problems. used man others whom he paid and come from other parts of the med. but hteres problem where mercenaries are expensive where citizen soldiers not just with money but protecting family, hosue, home… never convince mercenary soldiers… and they will change sides*** this is a problem where you use mercenary soliders. not enough well trained solliders but have no training… general or state running out of funding. and hannibal did… polyius mentions numbers and resources of the romans.. (far too fantastic) because if things are the way polybius writes, they shouldn’t have had problems… citizneshipBUT first join our rank and risk your life for your masters. after the war: also influenced because Rome ahs won. he gives other explanations… still continuning on from #60. civilizations for greek and romans… vs. barbarians. stereotyping and impossible to prove. we shouldn’t take it so seriously. more in the passage earaly on in the beginning when he talks about how 2 powesr stood against one another. but at the time entereing hannibalic war, carthagininas… isseu mentioned: carthagininan instituion was worse than Rome who had a better insitutition/organization. carhtage was founded before Rome and powerful than Rome who became pwoerful After the carthagians. polybius carthage declining… after their prime. 218n* carthage on its way down where Rome was on their prime.* yet polybius said at this point, Rome in their prime. he goes on to explain what he means. not because carthage was ruled by one person, carthage…multitude of carthage achieved where ROme still retained and mass deliberated. Rome's decision making was superior carthage alreaady had this (multitude of the mob rule)and no wonder,,,stupid deciions were made by mob rule but at the same time for ROme, there were assembly, consuls, and aristocracy* was much stronger in rome--senate* consist of leaders of the elites* richest family where all the generals come and obsivouly elected… and believes that ruole of the few… should be wise but at the saem time, it’s the best form of the govenrment than that of the carthagnians.. don’t give too much power to the ppl made sutpid deciiosn thus the carthaginians lost*** rome and carthage stregth of the romans and its resrouces. resources in the next passage LR 61: numbers. hsnnibal's army #accurate. but rome? its misleading…. one wonder how its possible…. such prolbme if they had so many men… presicely… never mobilized more than small pportion of them… and just impossible of keeping so many assemble to have them march into battlefield and feed…. alive…. support htem…. LR 62* hanniball's own inscription* seems to be reliable information. he marched from spain cross ebro river through southern france and moved on… and army was reduced… so why was it reduced? because encoutnered the alp….launched many attacks on carhtaginian forces by gauls and carthaginianns not wiped out but made their way through. even though surprised by north, march into territories densely inhabitted by gallic ppls some joined and other resistsed and didn’t want enormous ppl march into their territory making them fight… and at the end LR 63* the ALPs* the midst of winter, he encountered everyone….. problems which he had never forseen costing him quiet a lot of men and animals/elephants classical description found in Livy not so muh in polybius how trying to climb mountains and slope…help of (how did they did it?--> cut stairs into the mt. fire and vinegar* and created steps* polybius tells us, 1200 carthaginians and 800 tiberian(spain) and 6000 calvarly. but its expected that Romans could master many more. war in italy, there were defeats, (from last class -_-;) CANNAE* while giving sort of retreating in the middle and able to encircle romans-phlanx and romans were encirled completely. decided to contstrive more soliderand even slaves were joined… hanibal maybe commited some points in 216* but war goes to 201* battle of Zama* error to blame hannibal? haniibal had advantages, cocky… led men and roam around country side and roman forces cut off and marching around… soliders….find food… cant keep soliders together (feeding) and more vulnerable. reduced in numbers. not soo good. thus. what is he up to marching cris cross… what next? never made a move to take Rome*** why wouldn’t he take it? its where the main things are. he didn’t have the seige engine to take ROme* he didn’t really try to do it anyway… he wanst really outside the gate… and couldn’t because you need to use a seige engine* very well fortified by very high walls. how much of Rome was covered. old walls…. not soo much or given up building outside much other walls grown in them. this is one possibility of his error. he never gets closer… in the midst of it all, maybe Rome lose next year. he acts as diplomat in southern italy after 216. LR 64* and especiallly CAPUA* was then recaptured and brought back within Roman camp in 211* 5 years.. and got it back and hevily punished by the romans although livy who writes in 64.2 Romans treated them well. but in reality, it was a harsh punishment. considered 2nd largest city in italy. otherwise, not a rich place at all. Rome mobilized new forces and theres also in roman historian LIVY with different story of what happened in italy at this time.* LR 119* comes much later….rome and colonies. here Livy as author, livy sees positive way- how well things going, romantic picture. thus mainly about how things are done together in a
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