POL200Y1 Lecture Notes - Lecture 5: Glaucon, Thrasymachus, True Justice
Introduction is different from Thrasymachus
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Glaucon steps up with 'courage'
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Virtue
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Thrasymachus was mostly competitive - wanted to win
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Glaucon and Adeimantus wanted to learn / explore
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Socrates wanted to discuss anything with anyone
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End of dialogues end in state of perplexity
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Different motivation
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Depend appreciation nor convince hardcore skeptics -->
maybe not possible 'pour into soul'
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Glaucon and Adeimantus still believe in justice
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Your arguments are not convincing - please try to convince me
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Health is good
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Having good health = better life
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Goods we desire intrinsically for our own sake and for
consequences
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Instrumentally good things --> gross medicine, would not consume
for its own sake --> leads to desired outcome
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Why is justice intrinsically good?
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Natural: having good health
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Only because believe, not necessarily true
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Artificial: 'reputation' for something, prize
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Consequences
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Justice : 'even a kind of necessary evil' - instrumental
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By nature we seek injustice without consequences
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Glaucon's city: doesn't himself believe in, just making the case for
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Laws: justice is the name of strategy of self-protection
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Out of fear, people devised arrangement to not harm if others
agree not to harm them
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If we all strive - a few might be successful, but most people are
weak and will be oppressed
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Everyone is driven by the lust to be a tyrant
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People embrace justice just because they don't want to be
harmed
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System of justice oppresses the strong in the name of the weak
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If manly, break conventions and rule over others
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Glaucon:
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Everyone has tyrannical desires, injustice is more beneficial
than justice
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Evidence: hypothetical story of Gyges' ring : if anyone, strong /
weak acquired the ring of invisibility, they would use this power to
obtain greater powers (tyranny)
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362b: 'unjust man will sacrifice to Gods and be cared for by Gods.
Best able to help his friends and help his enemies' (Book 1)
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Unjust man will have a reputation of injustice, clever craftsman
(used against Socrates)
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Book 2
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October 13, 2016
5:45 PM
LECTURE Page 12
Document Summary
Thrasymachus was mostly competitive - wanted to win. Glaucon and adeimantus wanted to learn / explore. End of dialogues end in state of perplexity. Depend appreciation nor convince hardcore skeptics --> maybe not possible "pour into soul" Your arguments are not convincing - please try to convince me. Goods we desire intrinsically for our own sake and for consequences. Instrumentally good things --> gross medicine, would not consume for its own sake --> leads to desired outcome. Justice : "even a kind of necessary evil" - instrumental. Glaucon"s city: doesn"t himself believe in, just making the case for. If we all strive - a few might be successful, but most people are weak and will be oppressed. Out of fear, people devised arrangement to not harm if others agree not to harm them. Laws: justice is the name of strategy of self-protection. Everyone is driven by the lust to be a tyrant.
